Hi folks,
I am trying to decide the best way forward for our company's user documentation. Everything is currently authored in Word 2003, but it is struggling with the largest document (400 pages, including lots of index entries and cross-references, and some imported images). One option is to split the document contents, and another is to move to FrameMaker (which is expensive). But is moving to Word 2007 or Word 2010 another option worth considering? Can anyone tell me whether the more recent versions of Word are better at handling large documents than Word 2003, or will there be no real benefit in upgrading?
Look forward to hearing your opinions.
Many thanks,
Anne
Recent versions of Word and large documents Are Word 2007/2010 any better at handling large documents?
Thumbs-up points: 
MultiQuote
#2
Posted 2010-07-23 09:40
Anne,
Although I can't say for sure but logic leads me to think that you may be a candidate for 64 Bit Office 2010. Since this version will use more than 4Gb of memory it should handle your large documents much better.
Let's see what the other loungers have to say.
Although I can't say for sure but logic leads me to think that you may be a candidate for 64 Bit Office 2010. Since this version will use more than 4Gb of memory it should handle your large documents much better.
Let's see what the other loungers have to say.
#3
Posted 2010-07-23 11:19
I'd have to disagree with RG's advice here - at least in the case of Office 2007, the 64 bit version had problems, and even Microsoft steered people away from it. I don't know if that has changed with Office 2010, but I'd steer clear of the 64 bit version for the time being.
Wish I could give advice on Word 2007 or 2010 and large documents, but I haven't really had to torture-test these versions with large complex documents, the way I have with earlier versions. Hopefully someone else here with that experience will pitch in with an opinion.
One other question: do you have a sufficient amount of memory on your PC?
Gary
Wish I could give advice on Word 2007 or 2010 and large documents, but I haven't really had to torture-test these versions with large complex documents, the way I have with earlier versions. Hopefully someone else here with that experience will pitch in with an opinion.
One other question: do you have a sufficient amount of memory on your PC?
Gary
This post has been edited by Gary Frieder: 2010-07-23 11:20
#4
Posted 2010-07-23 12:44
I have to agree with Gary on this one. From what I've seen the 64-bit apps still aren't as stable as the 32 bit apps. And I seriously doubt that even a 400 page document would use more than say 1GB of space - unless it is loaded with graphics. Word has never been really good at handling large documents, and I think most people who do that sort of thing break them into smaller documents when editing them and then combine them either using Includes or Master documents when they want to produce the final product. Perhaps one of the book authors can comment on those issues.
#5
Posted 2010-07-26 04:27
I agree with Wendel B.
However, maybe there is room for optimism as far as word 2010 is concerned: I have recently been editing a 234-page Word 2003 document in Word 2010. It includes a number of large tables (some flowing over several pages) and 5 graphs linked to an Exel 2010 spread sheet, (Intel core i7 and 4Gb RAM and Word 2010, 32 bit under Windows 7 Professional, stand-alone desktop).
I have saved, and now work on the document, as a Word 2010 document and, so far, it has been working fine and certainly much quicker than it did with Word 2003. I have particularly noted that when moving paragraphs within it, the repagination is much faster and the automatic page numbering updating is almost instantaneous and so is the updating of cross-referencing. The original document had been created as sub-documents of a Master in 2003, but is now one large document because of its ease of "manipulation" in 2010. Whether this will hold true for 400 pages....I don't know, and how this would work over a network, I also do not know. (Large Word 2003 documents over a busy company network are still, in my case, a nightmare and cause me to work with a Master and sub-documents).
Perhaps it's worth playing around with a copy of your 400-pager and seeing how it performs in Word 2010 before you commit your company to change.
However, maybe there is room for optimism as far as word 2010 is concerned: I have recently been editing a 234-page Word 2003 document in Word 2010. It includes a number of large tables (some flowing over several pages) and 5 graphs linked to an Exel 2010 spread sheet, (Intel core i7 and 4Gb RAM and Word 2010, 32 bit under Windows 7 Professional, stand-alone desktop).
I have saved, and now work on the document, as a Word 2010 document and, so far, it has been working fine and certainly much quicker than it did with Word 2003. I have particularly noted that when moving paragraphs within it, the repagination is much faster and the automatic page numbering updating is almost instantaneous and so is the updating of cross-referencing. The original document had been created as sub-documents of a Master in 2003, but is now one large document because of its ease of "manipulation" in 2010. Whether this will hold true for 400 pages....I don't know, and how this would work over a network, I also do not know. (Large Word 2003 documents over a busy company network are still, in my case, a nightmare and cause me to work with a Master and sub-documents).
Perhaps it's worth playing around with a copy of your 400-pager and seeing how it performs in Word 2010 before you commit your company to change.
This post has been edited by Peter S: 2010-07-26 06:27
#6
Posted 2010-07-26 06:07
Hi folks,
Many thanks for your responses so far. I am intending to give the trial version of Word 2010 a go, but as I am going on holiday soon for a couple of weeks, I will wait until I get back before downloading it. Are Master documents more stable in Word 2010? I have avoided them until now as I have seen so many warnings against using Master documents, but if they are more stable then maybe they are an option worth considering?
The 400-page document will need to grow in the future as the product functionality grows. It could reach 500 pages eventually - hence the need for a decision on the right documentation tool. Fortunately I don't have to worry about opening documents over a network, as I am the sole technical writer here.
If anyone else has any other useful insights, I would be very grateful to hear them.
Anne
Many thanks for your responses so far. I am intending to give the trial version of Word 2010 a go, but as I am going on holiday soon for a couple of weeks, I will wait until I get back before downloading it. Are Master documents more stable in Word 2010? I have avoided them until now as I have seen so many warnings against using Master documents, but if they are more stable then maybe they are an option worth considering?
The 400-page document will need to grow in the future as the product functionality grows. It could reach 500 pages eventually - hence the need for a decision on the right documentation tool. Fortunately I don't have to worry about opening documents over a network, as I am the sole technical writer here.
If anyone else has any other useful insights, I would be very grateful to hear them.
Anne
#7
Posted 2010-07-26 06:25
Hello Anne. I am sorry, but I have not worked with master documents in Word 2010 because of the satisfactory performance with a large (234 page) document reported in my earlier post.
#8
Posted 2010-07-26 07:40
Sorry Anne - I've not worked with master documents in Word 2010 either, but I have worked with a rather large (100 pages) document loaded with graphics, and it seems to manage it quite well. Hopefully others with experience will chime in.
#9
Posted 2010-07-26 07:53
Have just discovered that there doesn't seem to be any such thing as a 30-day free trial of Office/Word 2010. Or does anyone know different?
#10
Posted 2010-07-26 07:58
AuthorAnne, on 2010-07-26 07:53, said:
Have just discovered that there doesn't seem to be any such thing as a 30-day free trial of Office/Word 2010. Or does anyone know different?
Joe
#11
Posted 2010-07-29 03:43
By the way: One factor that can make documents, especially large documents, crash, is poor automatic paragraph numbering. Word's paragraph numbering system is extremely complex and misuse of the various numbering methods that can be applied to paragraphs can cause chaos, often leading to slow response of the document to key-strokes and eventually crashing. It can also result in documents created by one author, behaving differently (as far as paragraph or list numbering are concerned) when opened by someone else on a different PC.
If you are feeling fresh, alert and brave, have a look at the following excllent (but mind-bending) article: http://word.mvps.org...plained.htm#Toc --especially the "Outline Numbering" section: I quote an interesting sentence: "A Word document tends to crash if the number of List Templates in a single List Gallery exceeds 256, so we have potentially 2,304 combinations of formatting for each list. In a 300-page manual with a list on each page, that's more than half a million differences in the numbering within a single document."
So, knowing when to use Outline Numbering as opposed to Numbered Lists can have a profound effect on the stability of a docment; the larger the document, the greater the potential for instability if you get your automatic numbering setups wrong. In general, Outline Lists are the way to go.
If you are feeling fresh, alert and brave, have a look at the following excllent (but mind-bending) article: http://word.mvps.org...plained.htm#Toc --especially the "Outline Numbering" section: I quote an interesting sentence: "A Word document tends to crash if the number of List Templates in a single List Gallery exceeds 256, so we have potentially 2,304 combinations of formatting for each list. In a 300-page manual with a list on each page, that's more than half a million differences in the numbering within a single document."
So, knowing when to use Outline Numbering as opposed to Numbered Lists can have a profound effect on the stability of a docment; the larger the document, the greater the potential for instability if you get your automatic numbering setups wrong. In general, Outline Lists are the way to go.
This post has been edited by Peter S: 2010-07-29 03:50
#12
Posted 2010-07-29 05:20
Peter,
Getting automatic numbering right is important, especially when you get to longer and/or more complex documents, but the article you link to should be taken with more than a couple of grains of salt.
For starters, the piece you quote about excess list templates gunking things up hasn't been an issue since Word 2000 - I believe it was starting with Word 2002 that a feature was built in which automatically reduces extra, unused list templates. In general, it looks like this article was written for Word 2000, and never updated.
Second, the author's take on successful use of automatic numbering is way too gloomy:
- that's just not right!
Just to cite personal experience, I've been associated over the years, with two of the world's largest law firms, where many thousands of documents using numbering are produced each year. At both firms, automatic numbering is set up in templates, using styles (and in most cases without VBA), and for the vast majority of users and documents, the numbering stays stable - the key being to use the styles provided in the templates, to apply numbering.
The issue you mention about numbering being unstable from user to user, or PC to PC, doesn't arise as long as everyone has the same templates installed, and everyone uses the same styles. Documents with problem numbering are relatively rare, and usually result from a user going outside the provided styles.
Word numbering does have its quirks that you have to steer clear of, but it's not so problematic as many people make it out to be.
Gary
Getting automatic numbering right is important, especially when you get to longer and/or more complex documents, but the article you link to should be taken with more than a couple of grains of salt.
For starters, the piece you quote about excess list templates gunking things up hasn't been an issue since Word 2000 - I believe it was starting with Word 2002 that a feature was built in which automatically reduces extra, unused list templates. In general, it looks like this article was written for Word 2000, and never updated.
Second, the author's take on successful use of automatic numbering is way too gloomy:
Quote
Unless you create them using styles, and define the styles using VBA, Outline- numbered list paragraphs will break pretty much every time you close the document unless you happen to be a highly-skilled user such as a technical writer who understands all the stuff you read here and bears it all in mind every minute they work! If you do that, the numbering will break only about half the time {grin}.
- that's just not right!
Just to cite personal experience, I've been associated over the years, with two of the world's largest law firms, where many thousands of documents using numbering are produced each year. At both firms, automatic numbering is set up in templates, using styles (and in most cases without VBA), and for the vast majority of users and documents, the numbering stays stable - the key being to use the styles provided in the templates, to apply numbering.
The issue you mention about numbering being unstable from user to user, or PC to PC, doesn't arise as long as everyone has the same templates installed, and everyone uses the same styles. Documents with problem numbering are relatively rare, and usually result from a user going outside the provided styles.
Word numbering does have its quirks that you have to steer clear of, but it's not so problematic as many people make it out to be.
Gary
#13
Posted 2010-07-29 06:09
@Gary. Thanks for your comments. I agree with you entirley, but quoted the extract to point out that automatic numbering CAN lead to major hassles. (btw, as I read the article, it has been updated to address Word 2003).
It is, however a fact that Word (even word 2010) can really behave crazily if you get auto numbering of lists/paragraphs, etc wrong: Sorting out the mess can be extremely taxing. I have, fortunately some time back now, had to try to deal with documents that had been created by personnel at home and then brought in to the work place network: Different templates, numbering set up differently---DISASTER. Your comment "as long as everyone has the same templates installed, and everyone uses the same styles" is the key. Not all Word users know this and end up with problems they can not easily comprehend or solve.
I also work in an environment where many users use large documents with auto numbered paragraphs/lists. The KEY to avoiding hassles (company policy) is the use of common templates with outline numbering as foundation.
I cited the examples because the original post to this thread by AuthorAnne mentioned "struggling with larger document of more then 400 pages" containing what (my deduction) could be data in numerous lists (possibly numbered?).
Similarly, Master Documents can be a headache, as discussed here: Once again, yes the article is rather melodramatic, particularly the final paragraph, (I have successfully used Master Documents extensively for many years) but does help explain what can go wrong. Forewarned is fore-armed. http://word.mvps.org...DocsCorrupt.htm But, as stated before in an earlier post to this thread, I have found Word 2010 to be stable with single, complex, documents of up 234 pages. (There is no Master Docs functionality in Word 2010 anyway: It's been dropped
Edit on 18 August 2010: PamCaswell has identified a "Master Documents" function somewhat hidden in Word 2010. As she states in a post lower down in this thread:
"...The master document group still appears on the outline tab of the ribbon in W2010"
And:
"Terry:
They have hidden it pretty well. First switch to outline view. The Outlining tab will appear. I don't use the outline view nearly as much as I did with W2003 & 2007, so I didn't find it on my own."
Thanks, Pam. I had not discovered it (like Terry, so I am not alone in this!), hence my (incorrect) assertion that Master Docs is no-longer supported in Word 2010. My apologies to anyone I may have misled. "mea culpa" as an Ancient Roman would have said.
It is, however a fact that Word (even word 2010) can really behave crazily if you get auto numbering of lists/paragraphs, etc wrong: Sorting out the mess can be extremely taxing. I have, fortunately some time back now, had to try to deal with documents that had been created by personnel at home and then brought in to the work place network: Different templates, numbering set up differently---DISASTER. Your comment "as long as everyone has the same templates installed, and everyone uses the same styles" is the key. Not all Word users know this and end up with problems they can not easily comprehend or solve.
I also work in an environment where many users use large documents with auto numbered paragraphs/lists. The KEY to avoiding hassles (company policy) is the use of common templates with outline numbering as foundation.
I cited the examples because the original post to this thread by AuthorAnne mentioned "struggling with larger document of more then 400 pages" containing what (my deduction) could be data in numerous lists (possibly numbered?).
Similarly, Master Documents can be a headache, as discussed here: Once again, yes the article is rather melodramatic, particularly the final paragraph, (I have successfully used Master Documents extensively for many years) but does help explain what can go wrong. Forewarned is fore-armed. http://word.mvps.org...DocsCorrupt.htm But, as stated before in an earlier post to this thread, I have found Word 2010 to be stable with single, complex, documents of up 234 pages. (There is no Master Docs functionality in Word 2010 anyway: It's been dropped
Edit on 18 August 2010: PamCaswell has identified a "Master Documents" function somewhat hidden in Word 2010. As she states in a post lower down in this thread:
"...The master document group still appears on the outline tab of the ribbon in W2010"
And:
"Terry:
They have hidden it pretty well. First switch to outline view. The Outlining tab will appear. I don't use the outline view nearly as much as I did with W2003 & 2007, so I didn't find it on my own."
Thanks, Pam. I had not discovered it (like Terry, so I am not alone in this!), hence my (incorrect) assertion that Master Docs is no-longer supported in Word 2010. My apologies to anyone I may have misled. "mea culpa" as an Ancient Roman would have said.
This post has been edited by Peter S: 2010-08-18 04:02
#14
Posted 2010-07-30 02:57
Peter and Gary,
Yes, the document does contain some auto-numbered lists, which I handle using styles. The only problem that I've ever had is trying to restart a list from '1' when the option to restart has been greyed out, but I've found a way round it (by restarting the next numbered item at '1' and then deleting the numbered item that had the Restart option greyed out - but that's an entirely separate issue).
There's certainly no issue with other users editing the documents, since I am the sole technical writer here.
I will give Word 2010 a test drive after my holiday - thank you Joe for providing a link to the trial version.
Many thanks for all the responses. I will post back after trying Word 2010 and let you know how well it handles the 400-page document.
Anne
Yes, the document does contain some auto-numbered lists, which I handle using styles. The only problem that I've ever had is trying to restart a list from '1' when the option to restart has been greyed out, but I've found a way round it (by restarting the next numbered item at '1' and then deleting the numbered item that had the Restart option greyed out - but that's an entirely separate issue).
There's certainly no issue with other users editing the documents, since I am the sole technical writer here.
I will give Word 2010 a test drive after my holiday - thank you Joe for providing a link to the trial version.
Many thanks for all the responses. I will post back after trying Word 2010 and let you know how well it handles the 400-page document.
Anne
#15
Posted 2010-07-30 05:14
Thanks Anne. Good luck. I hope you will find Word 2010 an improvement (I cerainly have, despite that darned ribbon which I am still adjusting to, in between using Ubit Menu when I am under pressure to get a document finshed within deadline).
#16
Posted 2010-07-30 13:05
Here are some useful links about Office 2020 64Bit Version:
About 64Bit Office
Prepare for 64 Bit Office
64 Bit Office Worth It?
About 64Bit Office
Prepare for 64 Bit Office
64 Bit Office Worth It?
#17
Posted 2010-08-02 10:11
A 400-page Word document is large but Word 2003 should have no problem with it. What is the file size?
I definitely would not recommend Office 2010 64-bit: even Microsoft are advising not to use it unless you need gigantic spreadsheets. You could run Word 2010 32-bit on 64-bit Windows 7, but I don't think that will address your problem. And Masterdocs has always been a problem so it has finally been dropped in Word 2010.
My gut feeling is that there is a problem somewhere in the document but that is only speculation without knowing more about its structure and contents. For starters, is it mostly formatted using styles with minimal direct formatting?
I definitely would not recommend Office 2010 64-bit: even Microsoft are advising not to use it unless you need gigantic spreadsheets. You could run Word 2010 32-bit on 64-bit Windows 7, but I don't think that will address your problem. And Masterdocs has always been a problem so it has finally been dropped in Word 2010.
My gut feeling is that there is a problem somewhere in the document but that is only speculation without knowing more about its structure and contents. For starters, is it mostly formatted using styles with minimal direct formatting?
#18
Posted 2010-08-16 04:17
Hi Terry,
Thanks for the warning about Word 2010, and for the information that Master docs have been dropped.
To answer your question, the 400-page document has been formatted using styles - both paragraph and character styles. There is a minimal amount of direct formatting where it seemed pointless to define a new style.
At the moment Word 2003 is just about coping with 400 pages, but there are occasional glitches. My worry is that I need to add new sections to the document, and that doing so will cause it to become unstable. I have trialled FrameMaker and it would do the job, but it is very expensive. I've also experimented with OpenOffice Writer, but have not yet had the time to try it in much depth. The best option seems to be to split the document.
Thanks to everyone for the input.
Anne
Thanks for the warning about Word 2010, and for the information that Master docs have been dropped.
To answer your question, the 400-page document has been formatted using styles - both paragraph and character styles. There is a minimal amount of direct formatting where it seemed pointless to define a new style.
At the moment Word 2003 is just about coping with 400 pages, but there are occasional glitches. My worry is that I need to add new sections to the document, and that doing so will cause it to become unstable. I have trialled FrameMaker and it would do the job, but it is very expensive. I've also experimented with OpenOffice Writer, but have not yet had the time to try it in much depth. The best option seems to be to split the document.
Thanks to everyone for the input.
Anne
#19
Posted 2010-08-16 23:58
Anne,
A recent article by Office Watch says that the code for the master documents has been rewritten (I'm not sure when, but sometime after W2000) and that it is not just OK to use but is actually "stable and worth using".
The master document group still appears on the outline tab of the ribbon in W2010. Just yesterday, a Word MVP suggested a very cool way to break up a large document using the master document capabilities, though not actually creating a master document. (So, finally, I have a potentially regular use for at least part of the feature. )
Before yesterday, I'd not had a call to use master documents in years, so I certainly won't say that you should use it, but, given the article from Office Watch, you might want to consider it.
Pam
A recent article by Office Watch says that the code for the master documents has been rewritten (I'm not sure when, but sometime after W2000) and that it is not just OK to use but is actually "stable and worth using".
The master document group still appears on the outline tab of the ribbon in W2010. Just yesterday, a Word MVP suggested a very cool way to break up a large document using the master document capabilities, though not actually creating a master document. (So, finally, I have a potentially regular use for at least part of the feature. )
Before yesterday, I'd not had a call to use master documents in years, so I certainly won't say that you should use it, but, given the article from Office Watch, you might want to consider it.
Pam
#20
Posted 2010-08-17 17:09
I cannot find an Outline Tab on the Ribbon nor a Masterdocs command anywhere. I am sure it has been dropped. It was in W2007 though.
If you are sure that your system is being stressed by the 400-page document, you could always break it up into several separate documents and then reassemble them when you have finished. But I don't see 400 pages being that large. What size is the document at the moment?
Maybe if images are making the size too large, you could link the images whilst you are working on the document (or use Picture Placeholders) and then add the images when you have finished.
If you are sure that your system is being stressed by the 400-page document, you could always break it up into several separate documents and then reassemble them when you have finished. But I don't see 400 pages being that large. What size is the document at the moment?
Maybe if images are making the size too large, you could link the images whilst you are working on the document (or use Picture Placeholders) and then add the images when you have finished.
This post has been edited by Terry Farrell: 2010-08-17 17:10